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April 24, 2005 at 8:43 am #18040TigerbladeParticipant
I’ve also posted this on my website, but I figured I may as well post it here, since I want to hear what people think:
Quote:Merovingian: It is, of course, the way of all things. You see, there is only one constant, one universal, it is the only real truth: causality. Action. Reaction. Cause and effect.
Morpheus: Everything begins with choice.
Merovingian: No. Wrong. Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without.So I just finished watching the Matrix trilogy again, and this part in Reloaded got me thinking. Is choice an illusion? (Choice: n. The power, right, or liberty to choose; option.) A big part of the trilogy was the issue of choice, or the lack thereof. The Architect’s big long speech mentions how the Oracle stumbled upon the fact that humans accept their surroundings only if they are given a choice, even if that choice is on a near-unconscious level. The Merovingian states that choice is nothing but an illusion.
Could that be true? Is cause and effect all there is to life? True, everything has to have a cause and an effect. But the question is, does choice matter? Do we have a choice in what we do, or are we just victims of causality? Thinking about it, I really couldn’t come up with an answer to the question. The radical behavioral psychologist B.F. Skinner believed that everything was a result of our environment. Everything comes down to stimulus and response – we are slaves to our environment and our learning history. According to his theories, we have no real control over our lives.
Quote:Morpheus: Do you believe in fate, Neo?
Neo: No.
Morpheus: Why not?
Neo: Because I don’t like the idea that I’m not in control of my life.I agree with Neo’s sentiment on this one – I don’t like the idea that I’m a helpless bystander in my own life. I like the ability to choose, the ability to decide, the ability to reason through something and then act on it. But is that ability real, or is it an illusion, another form of control by something higher up?
Please comment on this, I’m interested in hearing what others have to say about this idea…
April 24, 2005 at 9:43 am #120223RabidKittenParticipantReally, I used to think about this quite frequently, and in talking with some others over years of time, namely my mother and roomates, I really couldn’t give a solid answer on this.
True: I would feel also uncomfortable if choice was an illusion because I do not like the idea that I am not in control of my life. But I’m a control freak.
See, the thing is, how much do you believe in fate? Does fate control every thought you have, every breath you take? If you hold your breath right now, was it preplanned? If you, for no reason, do something completely out of character, was it predetermined?
Or…Is fate something that determines certain points in your life, certain key happenings that you will always come into conflict with, but lets you react as you will? Has fate planned that some day you will have to come to terms with a certain person in your family changing sexuality, but when and where is only up to them? At some point will you have to stand up to your abusive, controling mother/father, but in your own time?
Really, it is in how much stock you really put in the concept of “fate”.Or, as you pointed out, are we simply a product of our surroundings? Do we conciously have to make a decision in the kind of person we become or, because of our surroundings and upbringing, do we become the person we are, regardless of how we were raised? Perhaps people turn against how they were raised and the rules they were brought up with =because= of how they were raised.
This concept was brought to my attention in middle school when thinking about the phrase “The road of life”. I came to the conclusion that it was an unfit term. Our lives were NOT smoothed concrete that were layed out with great care, rolling over every kind of outside influense, that we were not on a predestined path that would happen regardless of influences we come across. Rather, that life was more like a river. A river that is slowly shaped by its surroundings, a living, breathing organism that is calm one moment and choppy the next, that can be formed and bent by things around it, or cut short abruptly (ie. death by outside influences, like murder) or cut its way through a mountain.Really, this idea, in my mind stemmed from the fact that being raised in a strange household where my father is transgendered, I feel that I am less likely to be biased towards those with different sexualities. I was shaped by my upraising. But…here is where it gets tricky…my father has been this way his entire life…he was born into it (in his words), so, was it predetermined that I was to be brought up in such a way and therefore react this way? The idea of fate controling us really seems like in some way it could be a valid concept, if not to just give us the bare bones.
Another idea is that we are each given a task in our creation, that it is our life’s mission to do one thing and one thing alone, and once it is done, our purpose is through and we die. And if that mission is not done, we are reborn again and are plagued to live life again and again until that unknown mission is completed.
Or, along with the idea of reincarnation, that our souls are striving to be perfect, and in this journey, they take on a number of lives and learn something different from each life, reliving over and over until they become complete, at which time they rejoin the ‘whole’ of the ‘spirit’. Another loose idea on ‘fate’ and ‘predetermined destiny’.Another idea about Fate came in the matrix with the Marill Vingean (The french dude, I’m not going to look how to spell his name). His idea was along the lines of Skinner, that everything is “cause and effect”, that we are slaves to it. But…if that’s true, then there was an initial cause that set someone off, someone sometime somewhere did something(cause) that allowed someone #2 to reciprocate(effect). When was this? Are there causes and effects all the time all around us, starting over and over as to where one cause leads to one effect and then dies? Or, in a more broader aspect, was there one single cause, one thing that set us all off and from then on throughout history, are there only effects, much like a domino effect that spans all across the world. Fascinating ideas, all of them.
The concepts of life and fate and the “butterfly effect” (If a butterfly flaps its wings in China, does it cause a tornado in Kansas?) have always been -fascinating- to me. Fascinating in that the ideas are all so thought provolking and serious and variably different, but…of course…that doesn’t mean I know what I nessisarily believe.
My thoughts on it are that there are things in this world I cannot control. I can’t control the person next to me, I can’t control what my family thinks, I can’t control the movement of the sun and stars, I accept that. And there are things that I am at least given the illusion of control over, like myself and the power to talk and discuss things with others to sway them or open their eyes to new possibilities. Even if it is just an illusion, I’m here, I’m doing what I believe and loving life. Whatever the truth is, *shrug* it doesn’t matter as long as I’m doing what I believe is right. Of course, that’s loosely accociated to my ideas of “God” and the like, so…yeah.
April 24, 2005 at 6:05 pm #120220TigerbladeParticipantRabidKitten wrote:Another idea about Fate came in the matrix with the Marill Vingean (The french dude, I’m not going to look how to spell his name). His idea was along the lines of Skinner, that everything is “cause and effect”, that we are slaves to it.i know – that’s how i started my post :p
Quote:My thoughts on it are that there are things in this world I cannot control. I can’t control the person next to me, I can’t control what my family thinks, I can’t control the movement of the sun and stars, I accept that. And there are things that I am at least given the illusion of control over, like myself and the power to talk and discuss things with others to sway them or open their eyes to new possibilities.that’s about how i feel about it too… some things are simply beyond my control, some things are within my grasp. but what exactly is really within my grasp, and how much is simply allowed within my grasp by cause/effect?
April 25, 2005 at 7:36 am #120226QwertyMemberI’m not too sure what i’m talking about here. Just reading from your first post. But does it go like this?
Fate does not exist. We make our own choices, however these descisions are influenced by our surroudnings etc. These surroudnings (some) we can not control. Such as where we are born. We then, therefore, in a sense, have fate.
Am I close?
April 25, 2005 at 5:17 pm #120221TigerbladeParticipantyes, that’s basically what i’m trying to get at. you say our decisions are influenced by the environment, but perhaps they’re actually *caused* entirely by the environment and we only *think* we’re making a choice?
you think you CHOSE to buy a house in the neighborhood you did, but did you really choose that location or did something happen that CAUSED you to pick that one?
April 26, 2005 at 3:28 am #120228colinMemberWell I am going to approach this from a religious standpoint (of course). Ephesians 1:11 says, “In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will”. I firmly believe that God has a plan for every single one of us, and everything we do “plays into his hands” so to speak. It is very inpspirational to know, especially when something bad happens to me. I just say to myself, “Obviously God didn’t want it to happen, and if God didn’t want it to happen, then I am glad it didn’t happen”. Also Proverbs 21:30 says ” There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the Lord.” That kind of supports what I said about everything we do plays into the hands of God. Jeremiah 29:11 also states ” ‘For I know the plans I have for you,’ declares the LORD , ‘plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.’ ” Please let’s not start a religious debate here, as we have already done that too many times in the past. I am just saying what I believe.
April 27, 2005 at 6:51 am #120224RabidKittenParticipantYeah, I think a lot of people actually use the religious aspect of the “god has it all planned out for us” as a comfort blanket. Like when people die. They curl themselves into this little blanket of “It’s all in his plan” to ignore the pain they feel. Just a kind of tool they use to justify the death in their minds. Or maybe…they died at 32 of lung cancer because they smoked 12 packs a day since they were 13 years old… *shrug* Who knows, I just always sat back watching all these people saying “Oh, yes, but it’s gods plan” and shaking my head, thinking…really now…
Whatever helps people cope, I imagine. Of course, you never see them say that it’s gods plan when someone is maliciously raped and beaten or when they take up a collection for folks that are being brought back to life on machines…whatever happened to gods plan then, I wonder sometimes, since they apparently insist on fighting against that “devine plan” for that person and keeping them alive artificially. *shrug* I don’t know… Keep in mind, that’s not a religious point, that’s an observational point in that people say one thing and then do another or use ideas to comfort themselves with deaths and other unfortunate events.
That’s one thing that always bothered me about the matrix…Morpheous. He’s always so secure that everything is as it is that nothing ever bothers him. I think it bothers me, not because he’s happy or content, but because it teeters on being blind by choice. Ignoring all other possibilities and saying “Oh, that was supposed to happen, screw it all”. If that’s a person’s outlook on life…then what’s to keep you getting out of bed? Why bother trying? Everything that’s supposed to happen is going to happen anyway, after all. Ah who knows. *snickers*
April 27, 2005 at 8:19 am #120227QwertyMemberI agree totally with Rabid.
The scientific, phscological theory makes a lot more sense and as a lot more evidence then some guy watching us who has a plan for us and we can’t change that plan.
I’m not going to say anything else because I don’t want to start a religious debate.
April 27, 2005 at 8:46 am #120225RabidKittenParticipantGood to see that I’m not the only one out on that limb, Qwerty.
April 27, 2005 at 1:08 pm #120215Jeff HesterKeymasterTo me. Saying scientific, “phscological theory makes a lot more sense and as a lot more evidence then some guy watching us who has a plan for us” is like saying I live my life based solely on facts, than ever taking risk by following my heart. I’ve been on the scientifc side before and it leaves nothing but questions everytime, and the answer to each question has been another one.
Anyway I could go on and on and on and why past experiences make me think the way I do in regards to our whole existence and etc etc etc, but this isn’t really the topic to do it in nor do I want a debate between science and God.
April 27, 2005 at 3:43 pm #120216Jeff HesterKeymasterI don’t claim to possess any special knowledge in this area, but I do have some views about determinism and free will.
I do believe that we were created (without apologies to those of you who put your faith in the belief that intelligent life was spontaneously generated by chance). It’s important to understand this because it explains something about my personal perspective.
Like Rabidkitten, I bristle at the notion that everything has already been determined, and therefore, we can be like Morpheous and stop fretting about the future. Not that worrying does any good, but that’s another discussion.
I believe that the answer to your question, like most answers, lies somewhere in the middle. Are we influenced by genetics? Of course we are! Zoologist Richard Dawson wrote about this concept in his book The Selfish Gene back in 1976. In his book, Dawson used the term “meme” to describe how a predisposition to beliefs or even likes and dislikes could be passed genetically. Here’s an interesting, short article on genetic memes.
We’re also influenced by our environment. The neighborhood we grew up in, the music we listen to, the friends we make; we glean bits and pieces from all of these to assemble our own unique personae. Most people are influenced without thinking much about it. The self-aware can be more selective, but we’ll always have subtle subconscious influences from our world around us. This is why it’s important to choose your friends, your books, your movies, etc. wisely. Just as we learned in grade school — we are what we eat.
A friend shared a great comic that spoofs the “nature vs. nuture” debate over on Snafu Comics. It poses the question – are geneticists rascist? Personally, I don’t think it’s one or the other, but a bit of both.
So then, given what Colin said, does that mean that everything is predetermined? And if so, does this mean I have no free will? And without free will, what is the point of morality or laws in general? We’re all going to do exactly what we’ve been predestined to do anyways, right? Or have we been predetermined to think we have free will, and therefore create laws and establish cultural morays about right and wrong? If so, why bother trying to be any different from who we are?
I believe that we are influenced by both genetics and our environment, but that we do have free will. We can change. We can choose between left and right; stop or go. We can be a friend or we can be a foe. We can love or we can hate. The choice is ours.
How does this fit in with Colin’s quotes? I addressed this about a year ago in similar discussion. In it, I describe how God transcends our understanding of space and time. This wasn’t something I dreamt up. It’s based on a talk I heard by Dr. Hugh Ross, PhD about the concept of a multidimensional diety. We understand space in three dimensions, and time in one dimension (a line anchored by a point and moving in one direction). But what if time, like space, were multi-dimensional? From our limited perspective, we could not “see” the other dimensions, but according to Ross, there is increasing evidence that additional dimensions exist.
Imagine being able to see time in three (or more!) dimensions, like a satellite image from Google Maps. And though it’s difficult to wrap your arms around the concept, it does not contradict free will. It’s more like being able to foresee the outcome of our free will choices (along with our less conscious choices influenced by nature and nuture).
Morpheus might have faith that the outcome is known, and he might believe he knows what that outcome is, but that doesn’t negate the importance of our own personal decisions and action.
April 27, 2005 at 11:51 pm #120218xerraireMemberI’d like to add to what Jeff said if I may.
I also believe in God and His Word. In that, I believe in His omnipotence, His omnipresence, His omniscience and His sovereignty.
In conjunction with God’s sovereignty is man’s free will. Sovereignty and free will perhaps pose a problem for our limited minds.
He knows all, and yet we get to choose. How can that be. Perhaps along with what Jeff said, about the dimensions, is how a Higher Power can know all the variables, too.
You can take the road to the left, the middle, the right, you get to choose, yet God knows all the infinate variables of the choices.This is my belief.
April 30, 2005 at 1:31 am #120217Jeff HesterKeymasterOops… I think I killed this thread. :confused:
April 30, 2005 at 3:45 am #120222TigerbladeParticipantbah you didn’t kill it. i think i’ve pretty much seen the general answer to my question though, and it was about what i expected in the first place.
i wasn’t expecting anyone to argue completely for one end or the other of the continuum, i was expecting most people to say its a mix of both choice and determinism. i just wanted to see if anyone had a particular leaning toward one of the other, if there was anything else to add to the idea.
thanks everybody! (feel free to keep posting more ideas if you have them though, i’m not trying to officially end the thread with this post)
April 30, 2005 at 3:47 pm #120219xerraireMemberI was after you, Jeff. Maybe it was me who killed it.
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