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Qwerty wrote:Not when compared to the 15 or so other countries without this right to unquestionably own guns. They all have signicantly lower deaths due to guns.Yes, less guns means less gun deaths the same way as less cars means less deaths involving cars, less knives less stabbings, and less people means less people killing each other regardless of the means they choose to facilitate it with.Qwerty wrote:I do not believe in [God]. However, the 10 commandments are timeless as they represtend society’s moral and social values whcih will alwasy be the same. (In theory)I myself do not believe in God either. If in theory that is true, then the society’s moral and social values that thought its citizens deserved the right to keep and bear arms should still be present today.Qwerty wrote:…I think your pretty safeIsn’t that what France thought before they were invaded and occupied by Nazi forces. The people of the Jewish faith never thought they would be starved and gassed to death. Nations have been warring since the dawn of time, while the US is some what protected having only two bordering countries and the oceans to place distance from other countries, that doesn’t make it invulnerable. Albeit as remote as it maybe, their is always the chance for another world war. The Chinese didn’t tear down their Wall when the Mongrels stopped attacking.Qwerty wrote:What the hell is a law abiding criminal? Do you know when a criminal is?I used bold font to draw attention to sarcasm. Laws, for the most part, only affect those people that abide by them, but I’m in no way encouraging anarchy. Theft is illegal, murder is illegal, but that hasn’t stopped it. In those counties without legal firearm ownership, has that stopped all gun deaths?
@Qwerty]It’s that simple, thats why you hunt with your guns instead od with knives.It’s not as simple as black and white, or ones and zeros, it’s shades of gray. I also hunt with razor blades strapped to a stick. Today it’s firearms, tomorrow maybe archery. It’s the domino effect, first you ban pistols, then rifles, then shotguns, and then bows and arrows before you know it will require a special license and a 200 dollar stamp just to own a knife to cut your steak. Granted that is a worst case scenario, but once your falling down the stairs it’s a little late to decide to make a stand there.[/color wrote:
Qwerty wrote:…hundreds of people don’t need to die each year through gun related deaths.I agree that hundreds of people don’t need to die each year through gun related deaths, just as I don’t believe people should die through drunk driving, drug overdoses, or medical malpractice.Qwerty wrote:But you don’t take your guns with you everywhere you go do you? You could be walking to the shops one day when you get robbed by some guy with a gun. Fat lot of good that gun sitting in your house is going to do. And if you do take your guns with you everywhere you go, then thats just dangerous and stupid.Right now I do not, but in a little under 6 months I will be going for my concealed carry weapons permit so I can carry it just about everywhere, except prohibited by law like school zones, court houses, and other states that don’t acknowledge Pennsylvania’s permit. Hypothetically speaking, if you were a robber would you rob a store where you know everyone has a gun? That would be dangerous and stupid.Qwerty wrote:Have many of you guys seen michael moores Bowling for Columbine? I assume most of you have, and while the guy is extremly left wing, he does raise some good points. It’s an entertaining movie, and a very bias documentry but still worth a watch. Have you seen it Ithaca?I myself have not viewed it, but I don’t active go to see movie, just mostly if someone takes me or they have a movie and want me to watch it with them. Non-premium cable T.V. on the other hand, that watch allot of, mostly the History channel and the Scifi channel. I would like to see it and the documentary Innocents Betrayed promoted by the organization Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.In countries that ban the legal ownership of firearms what is the main cause of homicide there, and are they trying to ban it? To use a knife, or other bladed object, as an example; I also own swords, daggers, muti-tools, and knives, right now they are not seen as big threats like firearms are, but they will if firearms are banned. I carry one of my knives just about everywhere. I carry it because I use it at work, I do landscaping now but used to do farming, to me it’s a tool but it can also be a weapon, as a firearm can be a tool for self-defense. Once Firearms are gone legal ownership of knives might be next.
Ithaca1937 wrote:Yes, less guns means less gun deaths the same way as less cars means less deaths involving cars, less knives less stabbings, and less people means less people killing each other regardless of the means they choose to facilitate it with. Cars are an essential part of economy and travel, knives are used everyday for tools and eating, and you can’t not let somebody live because they could, maybe kill somebody.Guns, however, do not need to be widly distrubuted. They do have reasons for existing though, as I have said, but an everday person doesnt need one. As, i asume, yourself.
Ithaca1937 wrote:I myself do not believe in God either. If in theory that is true, then the society’s moral and social values that thought its citizens deserved the right to keep and bear arms should still be present today.No, im afraid your wrong. Should blacks still be slaves? Should Native Inidans still be shot at at will? Should balcks still be hung without a trial with no governemnt intevention?Your missing the point mate.
Ithaca1937 wrote:Isn’t that what France thought before they were invaded and occupied by Nazi forces. The people of the Jewish faith never thought they would be starved and gassed to death. Nations have been warring since the dawn of time, while the US is some what protected having only two bordering countries and the oceans to place distance from other countries, that doesn’t make it invulnerable. Albeit as remote as it maybe, their is always the chance for another world war. The Chinese didn’t tear down their Wall when the Mongrels stopped attacking.France was invaded because they didnt learn from their mistakes. And whose to say they felt safe?The people of the Jewish faith are not citizens of a country. I think you mean Jews living in and around Germany and yes, you are probably right, but don;t get me started about jews.
And once again you are missing the point, as I have already stated time and time, things have changed. The USA now has one of the largest armys in the world, your government will give you a bloody gun if you need one!
And in regards to the chinese, they dint need to tear down their wall as it was a symbol of their enginuity, teamwrokd and obove all, wasnt killing poeple. Poor example.
Ithaca1937 wrote:Laws, for the most part, only affect those people that abide by them, but I’m in no way encouraging anarchy. Theft is illegal, murder is illegal, but that hasn’t stopped it. In those counties without legal firearm ownership, has that stopped all gun deaths?Laws do not only affect those that abide by them as long as they are properly enforced. And oncre again you are missing the point! In answer to your question, no, thse countries that restrict gun ownership don’t have 0 gun fatalities per anum but they are significantly lower than those of the USA. That is the whole point!@Ithaca1937]It’s not as simple as black and white, or ones and zeros, it’s shades of gray. I also hunt with razor blades strapped to a stick. Today it’s firearms, tomorrow maybe archery. It’s the domino effect, first you ban pistols, then rifles, then shotguns, and then bows and arrows before you know it will require a special license and a 200 dollar stamp just to own a knife to cut your steak. Granted that is a worst case scenario, but once your falling down the stairs it’s a little late to decide to make a stand there.[/QUOTE wrote:
So these other 15 or so other countries are doing that hey? Banning knives? All i'm saying is, what is the harm in significantly restricing the use of an item that does not majorly benefit anybody but does cause thousands of deaths evry year? Surely the good outweighs the bad?
Ithaca1937 wrote:I agree that hundreds of people don't need to die each year through gun related deaths, just as I don't believe people should die through drunk driving, drug overdoses, or medical malpractice.You are right, they dont. But restrictions (eg: laws and other such regualtions) are in place to attempt to limit these deaths.Ithaca1937 wrote:Right now I do not, but in a little under 6 months I will be going for my concealed carry weapons permit so I can carry it just about everywhere, except prohibited by law like school zones, court houses, and other states that don't acknowledge Pennsylvania’s permit. Hypothetically speaking, if you were a robber would you rob a store where you know everyone has a gun? That would be dangerous and stupid.Not as dangerous and stupid as carrying a gun with you everywhere you go. What's to stop it going off? It's happned before, even to trained army personel.Ithaca1937 wrote:I myself have not viewed it, but I don't active go to see movie, just mostly if someone takes me or they have a movie and want me to watch it with them. Non-premium cable T.V. on the other hand, that watch allot of, mostly the History channel and the Scifi channel. I would like to see it and the documentary Innocents Betrayed promoted by the organization Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.OK then, how about you go and watch it? That's not a command or an order or anything, im just saying next time you have nothing to do but shoot unarmed animals with a firearm, why not pop down to the vid shop and rent it out? It will help you to see another groups perspective whihc will greatly benefit yourslef. Trust me.@Ithaca1937]In countries that ban the legal ownership of firearms what is the main cause of homicide there, and are they trying to ban it? To use a knife, or other bladed object, as an example I also own swords, daggers, muti-tools, and knives, right now they are not seen as big threats like firearms are, but they will if firearms are banned. I carry one of my knives just about everywhere. I carry it because I use it at work, I do landscaping now but used to do farming, to me it’s a tool but it can also be a weapon, as a firearm can be a tool for self-defense. Once Firearms are gone legal ownership of knives might be next.[/color wrote:
I’ll use Australia as an example.
1) I would say knives, hammers, screwdrivers, poles, bricks and on a minor scale, guns, would be the major weapons of murder here. Excluding, of course, strangling, punching, and other physical things.
2) No, none of these things have even considered to be banned. So you are wrong.
3. Once you are 18, without a permit, you are allowed to buy swords in Aus as well. Same with hunting knives, and other such things.
The thing is, as alreadyf mentioned about 500 times, knives arnt as lethal or easy to kill numerous people with as guns. Thats the main arguemnt.
BTW: 10 more people killed by guns today, thought you might like to know that.
Sometimes it’s hard to imagine 10 people’s deaths. JUst take 10 pople in ur life and pretend they r dead. you will never see them again… Do you understand the severity of death at all?
It’s sick…people don’t need to die that way. (But look what the death of Theo Van Gogh did to the Netherlands? It he was murdered in broad daylight….with a knife and the guy even left a note stuck to him WITH the knife.) Perhaps though, too many people in the worlds see it Stalin’s way; (I’ll paraphrase) ‘One death is a tragedy, one million deaths is a statistic’ I’d like to hope our society has not come to this point.
There are a lot of crazy people out there, and they don’t know they need help. So, they go out into the real world and kill people for no reason. I think people do have the right to bare arms, but not for people whose emotional and mental problems have not been cured. Once their cured we’ll give them their right back.
Yesterday there was a school shooting, 9 people were killed including the shooter. The shooter was a neo nazi and a lonner. There’s a problem going in schools which is called “Bullies”. Jocks and populars like to fun of outsiders and kids with learning disables. This is my theory on what causes school shootings.
- Outsider gets bullied by the Jock/popular kid
- Outsider joins racist group
- Outsider gets parent gun that is lock up
- Outsider shoot populars and jocks
- Either kills himself or surrenders
In conlusion jocks and populars are the reason for school shootings. I know, because I was one of the kids who was being made fun of. And there were times I wanted to kick their ass, but I didn’t, I feel prowerless. Thank God I graduated high school. Someday I will be famous and they will be poor and stoned and in rehab.
I’m not so sure that’s it’s populars and jocks more than it’s parents do not spend enough time with their kids. If parents (not all parents some are excellent and do great things and SOME need to stay as far away as possible so they don’t screw up their kids) spend more time with their children and teach them right from wrong:
1. Jocks/populars will bully LESS (Kids are going to bully some..unfortunately it’s life and prepares you for when those same bullies are your co-workers)
2. The outsider would not join a racist group most likely (Because the parents that might make them racist would be some of the ones who need to stay FAR away from their kids)
3. The outsider would either have a healthy respect for guns because the parents would have taught him/her respect for fire arms. OR there just would not be a gun in the house.
4. The outsider would not shoot jocks/populars because the outsider would also respect HUMAN LIFE. One life taken affects many, many others.
5. The shooter would not committ suicide OR have problems with the authorities because he’s have a healthy respect for law & order.Parents need to spend more time with their children. Cool, you like others have realized that these kids that bully are just insecure little people who feel the need to tease others and many times end up no where.
I think it can be a mix of things. You would both be right in some cases. It is usually the outsider howver, and outsiders are usually ostriced by society… But that is nature..
Anything else to say, btw, Ithaca?
And on a side note, theres this: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/custom/fringe/sfl-323chihuahua,0,3927896.story?coll=sfla-news-fringe
Ithaca, ohhh I’m so glad that someone else has proven to tear Qwerty’s…em…discussion tactics from myself and share the ‘popularity’ *girlish giggling, clasps her hands together* How lovely it is. Pehaps now, he will have more than me to talk with and I wont get anymore “reminder” notes in my Personal Message drawer. With my odd schedual, it becomes bothersom to him, I’m sure when I vanish for days at a time.
As for your earlier questions, Qwerty, my point is that you are very very “american” biased, I think. You seem to have very little good to say, ever, about the place, and think that there’s such an easy peasy way to fix everything. I’m sorry to say but it is not that easy. There are many many reasons why and why not to have guns. There are many many reasons why and why people do not kill each other. There is a vast multitude of variables in every single case.
Due to the american society, the american popycock arrogance, the american disease for attention and vast sums of…everything, any or all of the above and many other reasons, the people here and our issues are rather souly different from any other countries. Just as just about every other country’s issues are genuine and special to them. Something that will work to fix an issue in, say, Israel, will not nessisarily work for the same issue in Cuba. Even in more similar countries, the separation of an ocean can be wonders for culture and a number of things that are specific to that country that can effect -everything-.
It’s been said, if guns are made illegal, only criminals will own guns. If they are made harder to get, people will become more inclined to break into gun shops, they will go to the extents of what is needed to get a gun if they really want them, and sellers are not uncorruptable. There are corrupt people who will sell anything for a couple hundred dollars, people who will smuggle anything into a country if there is a profit involved. When the masses are unarmed, honest people, then the corrupt will take advantage of it. So, completely abolishing the idea that someone has the right to bare arms is just asking for an even greater problem.
Now again, selling M16’s to a 75 year old man in a wheelchair with a sadistic 15 year old grandson is just moronic. You can kill someone with a shotgun, with a 6 shooter, yes, but you can kill a whole lot of someones a whole lot easier with an automatic, 50 shots a second weapon of war from the army surplus store. There is a line that needs to be better -defined-, but completely taking away weapons is not the answer.
I think…that the one difference between my opinions, my discussions and other people’s is that I believe more in the people’s will that most do. I believe that if there is a profit, an urge, a will, a need, a demand for anything, people will find a way. No matter how many they hurt, maim, kill, wound, damage, no matter what they loose, gamble to loose or destroy, people find a way, and unfortunately, not everyone has the blessed curse of a conscience.
*shrug* I thought by now, you’d realize that I’m more prone to talking in general situations than specific and keep from stating my own opinion in some glaring manner. I also tend to lean toward observational discussion rather than opinion based discussions. After all, you can’t very well expect eggs from a beaver for breakfast. If you discuss something with an observational person, you’re not going to get an opinion based response.
My opinion really matters little, to me most of all. What is it going to do but enrage some, gladden others and run us all around in circles, but if you want it, here. I don’t personally see a point in guns, nor do I own one, but that will not stop my future spouse from owning one if so inclined to do so. I have fired a multitude of weapons, but I dislike them and do not hunt, and when I have the opportunity, I decline on touching one. I don’t know what to do about the murder rate, nor about the abused child problems, about the multitude of rapes and drunken rages. I have no clue on how to solve the deficite or how to help the homeless. I can’t cure the sick, soothe the wicked or how to stop the masses from cutting their wrists in a fit of LSD. But that’s just me, and I’m not about to pretend that there is a quick and easy ‘fix’ to any of these problems, because if I’ve learned anything in these few years of life, I’ve learned that there is no easy way to fix any major problem. All I can do, is talk about what I would imagine would happen, what I observe that -has- happened and what I have heard others, more learned than I, have said.
On a side note, Not many of you are probably aware of this, but there was a school shooting in an Indian (Not like this *pokes her forehead in the traditional marital dot place of the Indians* but like this *sticks a parrot feather in her hair and holds up a dream catcher*) Reservation High School in my state near Duluth this past week. (Can be found here about the Red Lake Reservation High School Shooting http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/editorial/11207815.htm ) And I went to a powwow today, in which all of the procedes went to the families who were effected by the tragedy. It was really extremely interesting, and if any of you have an opportunity to go to one, if it’s open to the public, to go to one. I know there isn’t much similarity, but I was reminded about it because that’s been the big topic in rochester lately with gun control and such.
Yep, I heard about the shooting. On the news and in the papers, reporters were saying it’s about as bad as the Columbine High School shooting in 1999. It’s so sad.
RabidKitten wrote:Ithaca, ohhh I’m so glad that someone else has proven to tear Qwerty’s…em…discussion tactics from myself and share the ‘popularity’ *girlish giggling, clasps her hands together* How lovely it is. Pehaps now, he will have more than me to talk with and I wont get anymore “reminder” notes in my Personal Message drawer. With my odd schedual, it becomes bothersom to him, I’m sure when I vanish for days at a time.NOw that is just unfair and unescary. Not to mention rude.RabidKitten wrote:As for your earlier questions, Qwerty, my point is that you are very very “american” biased, I think. You seem to have very little good to say, ever, about the place, and think that there’s such an easy peasy way to fix everything. I’m sorry to say but it is not that easy.Want to provide examples? Or are you just going to make acusations? Once again, unfair.And why don’t you respond to the Tsunamia thread btw? At least post soemthing to admit defeat or something similar.
“admit defeat”?? Hardly. Your arrogance never ceases to amaze me. I didn’t post anything because I’m bored with it, and it seemed to be the adult thing to do to simply agree to disagree and take it as just one of those things that should not be talked about. I found it to be tiresome, boring, pointless and not to mention I was tired of you calling names and calling my views ignorant and such. Maybe if you learn how to be more tactful with your words, then I will once again join in on your discussions.
As for me being rude and such, that was more of an admittance that I am unreliable and that I’m sure you don’t like waiting for days on end for a response. And the ‘reminder’ note was truthful, was it not? Didn’t you send me little notes with catchy little comments liek “chop chop” on them with the thread address listed? I know where it is, Qwerty. If I want to respond, I will. Patience is a virtue. “Rude and unnessisary” would be correcting your spelling, grammar, or your tendancy to use keyboard slang. I was just being honest.
And really, this entire thread is a good example of how you think just everything in the US is easy to fix in one swift motion. And I really don’t have the time, energy or the urge to point out every comment that was even slightly swayed to be anti-american based for little to no reason. And really, you’re entitiled to your opinion, and if that’s your perogative, that’s fine *shrug* what do I care? Once more, observatory commentary is what I excell in.
RabidKitten wrote:“admit defeat”?? Hardly. Fair cop.RabidKitten wrote:I’m bored with it, and it seemed to be the adult thing to do to simply agree to disagree and take it as just one of those things that should not be talked about.It was a debate. And if you were bored with it then the adult thing would be to frop it an inform me. Don’t you think?RabidKitten wrote:I found it to be tiresome, boring, pointless and not to mention I was tired of you calling names and calling my views ignorant and such. Maybe if you learn how to be more tactful with your words, then I will once again join in on your discussions.This is what really got me. I never once “called you names”. Not once. I even told you this when you acused me of calling names. Yet you still persistened in acusing me of “calling you names”. Show me proof and I will say sorry. I know you can’t because I didn’t. And don’t give me this “too tired to bother” b/s, cause it’s unfair to me and phheraps then, I would call you names cause you already thing i did.RabidKitten wrote:As for me being rude and such, that was more of an admittance that I am unreliable and that I’m sure you don’t like waiting for days on end for a response. And the ‘reminder’ note was truthful, was it not?Truthful? In respect to what? I don’t follow what you are trying to say.RabidKitten wrote:Didn’t you send me little notes with catchy little comments liek “chop chop” on them with the thread address listed? I know where it is, Qwerty. If I want to respond, I will. Patience is a virtue. “Rude and unnessisary” would be correcting your spelling, grammar, or your tendancy to use keyboard slang. I was just being honest.Yeah, i did. But always with a little winky man;) . It was all in good humour, I enjoyed the “debate” if you could call it that and I thought that phheraps you had forgotten about the thread. I only ever sent you two reminders as well. It’s not like it was a daily thing or anything. I guess you just took it in the wrong context. Which is more than understandable as it is the internt afterall.And yes, btw, “rude and unnescesery” would be poiting out things and acusing me of things in threads that have nothing to do with that. You could easily have pm’ed me to get your greivences off you chest.
RabidKitten wrote:And really, this entire thread is a good example of how you think just everything in the US is easy to fix in one swift motion.I don’t. What are you talking about?RabidKitten wrote:And I really don’t have the time, energy or the urge to point out every comment that was even slightly swayed to be anti-american based for little to no reason.Everyone has a slight amount of bias towards what they believe. It is simply human nature. I only aksed you to provide an example of when I said something like “You seem to have very little good to say, ever, about the place, and think that there’s such an easy peasy way to fix everything”. After all, I only wanted an example of what you were acusing me of. Isn’t that only fair? I really am sick of you acusing me of things I have not done. LIke that and “calling you names”. Believe me, i could call you “names” if I wanted. But I ddint. And if you think i did. I may as well start. And believe me, they wouldn’t be based on your intelligence or “ignorence”.In Canton, Texas (a few hours away from where I live), the father of a high school student shot the students old football coach. This happened last week I think. What is very scary is that my brother was in Canton the same exact day that the shooting happened. I dont nessesarly think guns should be outlawed, because hunter is very fun, but there should be requiremnts you have to meet to purchase or use a gun. Such as no crimal record, no mental illnesses, etc.
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