February 25, 2006 at 12:00 am #21848
most of you guys have come across this news of some Danish Newspaper publishing some cartoons of Prophet Muhammad made by some Danish cartoonist. This issue has spread like a fire over many countries, it is very difficult to ignore this issue.
I want to encourage all members to come forward and post their opinions here, about what they think of this issue. Who is to be blamed? Whatever the Danish cartoonist did, was it right and justified? Whats the boundaries for the Freedom of Expression? Do you think Muslim protestors are over reacting to something not so important or do you think it is indeed a very wrong thing to do by the Danish cartoonist.
This post is mainly for discussion and knowing the opinion of various people from various parts of the globe….not to offense any one or any particular religion. As a part of BBB community, and also personally, I respect all religions, including Islam. So feel free to step ahead and give us your opinion about the whole topic.
In my opinion, when I first heard of the cartoon issues, I thought that there were only two cartoons. With google search, I found just one cartoon. Looking at it, I thought for a second, ..well dont we make fun of Jesus all the time on Family Guy? Hell, yesterday I was watching Jay Leno's show and some guy made jokes about the church, Catholic Mass, and even Jesus itself. But we laughed at it without getting angry or without threatening to kill the artist or suing Family Guy for its animation. Even few years ago when Taliban came into power in Afghanistan, they destroyed a huge and ancient Buddha statue at Bamiyan. Why didn't people seriously protest against that? So why are some people taking the cartoons so seriously ? Ok. Every one has a right to protest and take it offensively. But, there has been incidents of fundamentalists burning down buildings, taking hostages, burning down churches, chanting anti-american slogans (even if America is no way involved in those cartoons and American Govt condemned these cartoons)..
Later I found out that there has not been just 2 cartoons, but the same cartoonist published 12 cartoons related to Prophet Muhammad. Thinking about it now, it DOES look like a deliberate motive to piss off the muslims or to undermine them or to make fun of their religion, which is not appropriate. Many European countries stood by their News Paper editors saying that they have the freedom of expression. But whats the limit of freedom of expression? Just because one has the freedom of expression, does that mean he can express anything derogatory he wants? Whats the thin line between respect and freedom of expression?
I want you guys to think for sometime and post here.February 25, 2006 at 12:24 am #138851RU Still DownMemberneo_ny_23 wrote:But whats the limit of freedom of expression? Just because one has the freedom of expression, does that mean he can express anything derogatory he wants?In the United States (as far as I know) you can usually publish what ever you wish (as long as your publishing company, ISP, etc allows you to do so (as far as words are concerned)). This does not mean that you won't be censored by parents, schools, organization, etc.
If you allow the ban/censorship of racist/derogatory things, what's next? Who will decide what will be banned/censored or not? If i believe that aliens are God and humans are stupid losers, I should be able to publish that information no matter how anyone else feels about the topic. I am offended by the cartoon (I believe that racism is a bad) but I do support Freedom of Speech and therefore I support the paper publishing the works (although I have not seen these comics).
“The true test of someone who claims to believe in Freedom of Speech is whether they tolerate speech which they disagree with, or even find disgusting…” from Freenet FAQFebruary 25, 2006 at 12:53 am #138845TigerbladeParticipant
Honestly I'm disgusted by the whole thing. Seriously… there's no reason it should have ever gotten this out of hand. True, it may not have started in the USA, where free speech tends to be the general rule, but still. While the cartoonist may have “gone too far” according to some, it's a political cartoon. what makes these any different than any other political cartoon bashing on any other subject? Oh yeah, because they're bashing on Islam and the Prophet. One of the blogs I frequent had this to say:Quote:I have something to say to those who think that the non-Muslim world should bend the knee to Muslim whim.
In a world where you can place a crucifix in a jar of urine, call it art, where a portrait of the Virgin Mary can be created out of fecal matter and it too is called “art”…
No one really gives a s**t about the so-called desecration of the image of your prophet.
I have to agree. The rest of the world tolerates the desecration of our religious symbols and the radicals' calls for jihads to exterminate us insolent infidels, why can these rioters not tolerate the same? I'm not saying that all Muslims are this way. Far from it. I realize that these are typically extremist radicals.
From an article I read (in Time magazine, I think), it appears that what set this all off wasnt the cartoons themselves, but the refusal of the newspaper's editors to meet with a Muslim delegation which wished to discuss the issue. i think that was a bit low on the part of the Danish editors. Other than that, I dont see any problem with them publishing an opinion-based editorial cartoon. if it had been “desecrating” Christ, or Buddha, or Ra, nothing would have happened. Maybe a few protests or angry letters, but certainly no mass riots and killings.February 25, 2006 at 1:52 pm #138850MrOatsMemberMy Global Studies Teacher wrote:The muslims are so upset about this [cartoon] issue because their religion is strictly against any images of Allah, prophets, etc. They believe that any image [like so] is disgraceful and distracting from thie focus of their religon.
Yes, I think that cartoon is wrong (see quote); But the muslims (Some Orthodox/Radicals) shouldn't have gone this far… I saw on some news sites (BBC,CBS, etc.) some of these extreamists burning denmark's flags, rioting; and some stores in the middle east do not sell products from Denmark. I think that is a little too far. Everyone should defend thier religion, but their is no real need for riots or boycott… I mean, what is it going to do? They shouldn't be this concerned if you ask me. It's not like one of their people made the cartoon, an “infidel” from Denmark did. So, why should they care? Arn't all “infidel's” “going to hell” anyway? (According to some Muslims.)
I really am sickened by the whole idea, really.
Note: I respect all religions/Lifestyles of people… I do not mean to disgrace any ones beliefs here. I am just sharing my thoughts.February 25, 2006 at 3:24 pm #138843OreoMember
There are actually many MODERATE Muslims in the world who believe that YES it was wrong because of no images of the prophet (In case they are worshipped…though I doubt that cartoon would invoke worship in anyone) but are COMPLETELY against the violence that has erupted. I think what is really going on is that people are using religion for their personal and politicial goals. (yeah….right…the first time in history THAT's ever happened…uh ha…)
Well, look at what we have….do you see the wealthiest of Muslims (besides terrorist heads) getting involved in this violence directly? No. It's the poor mostly… they are being used as foder in the name of their “higher power” for the benefit of some mad men with lots of money and even more hatred.
Burning flags? Storming consulates? Anyone who has studies Islam…even at it's most basic…will see that this does not go along with their religion. (Neither does bombing a world & religious treasure like a golden domed mosque…but that's another issue). I find it sick that some one took this cartoon…which was ORIGINALLY published in SEPTEMBER….(think of HOW long ago that was….) and used it to make this world disorder.
Nothing is accomplished with getting people angry…and making people martyrs who die….trying to BURN DOWN a consulate…that's not going to make the situation better. Radical Islam, like Radical Judeism, like Radical Christianity (and yes…every religion has their own brood of radicals) does not help the majority of the rest of the religion…unfortunately, Islam has been highjacked by terrorists….and people are dying needlessly….protests, I could understand…protests with deaths and destruction….this is absolutely WRONG…and don't even get me started on those calling for the “Deaths” of those in charge of the cartoons and their printing…..February 25, 2006 at 10:11 pm #138847
For Muslims, depicting any kind of pictoral form of Prophet Muhammad is considered to be anti-muslim or anti-Islam. For example, if I would draw a picture of Prophet Muhammad, in the eyes of Muslims, it would be against their tradition and religion. Even if am a non-muslim or if I don't believe in Islam, it will offend them and their religion. But, should I always care about whats going to offend whom and in what way all the time even if something is so unintentional? say for example, if I eat pork, won't it be considered offensive to Islam traditions too? Does that mean that I should give up eating pork and ask my female friends to wear Burkhas or Veils? The point is, no matter how careful we are, no matter how good our intentions may be, its surely gonna hurt some one's sentiments, whether we like or not. The solution to that is to develop tolerance. People have to learn to accept certain facts and not to create a furore about every tiny little issue.
I just wanted say that people have always used religion for their personal and political goals. This is just another example of the whole set up. Best example is Osama bin Laden himself. Isn't he using religion for his own basic personal and political cause? Didn't Taliban use religion to come into power in Afghanistan? This has been going on for centuries.
And yeah. rich, powerful fundamental Islamists are indeed related to those kind of violence as in “protest” against the cartoons. If I remember, even the premier of Iran called upon “death” to all Americans because they are “infidels” and are “some way” related to the cartoons. Offcourse this is laughable, as we all know that US is no way related to this whole incident, but, if a common illiterate muslim guy hears his rich, powerful, premier calling upon Jehad against Americans on a thing which is entirely false, what can else can we expect from him? As I said somewhere else, the only way to create a sense of tolerance and understanding among muslim regions is by secular education. Without secular education, many things go wrong, as we see it today.
I agree with Oreo that the protests are valid and understandable, but not at the cost of vandalism.February 25, 2006 at 10:30 pm #138844OreoMember
Neo I'm aware of that…perhaps I should have put the [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tag….February 25, 2006 at 11:35 pm #138852imported_TakODaMember
First of all, let me begin by saying that I agree with the majority of what people have already said here about Islam: that there are actually many moderate Muslims in the world who believe that this reaction was wrong and who are completely against the violence that has erupted.
Being passionate and even radical about your religion is one thing, but violence and terrorism is a whole different thing. I agee that Islam has been highjacked by terrorists. The same thing happened to Christianity during the Crusades. In short, what I am saying is that I believe that there are good and bad apples in every bunch.
However, people do make fun of Jesus all the time and destroy Buddha statues and make Jew jokes, but rarely has there been a reaction so violent as this that it has made world headlines.
As a Christian, I am involved in religious debate quite frequently online. I was taught that one of the first rules of debate is that you never want to launch a personal attack against anyone, because the moment you do, all rational thought goes out the window and it just turns into one big shouting match.
When sharing my faith online, I never resort to personal attacks, and I never respond with name-calling or ridicule even to those who would curse me out or blaspheme the name of my God. Even when I am persecuted, I understand that reacting with violence is not an option for me.
The American government has taken christian prayer and the pledge of allegiance out of public schools. Why aren't there Christian people carrying out acts of violence against our government in response to such things as this?
Most religious groups have been victims of persecution at one time or another, and most of us have also been guilty of doing it to others. But there are certain things that you just have to tolerate. Certainly we can all express protest without resorting to violence.March 6, 2006 at 5:33 am #138846QwertyMember
Once again, all it is is extremism. I think if somebody was to draw ten or so derogatory cartoons of somone i respected and based my life around I would be quite offended. Muslim groups and leaders all over the world have expressed their feelings like this; to the media, on camera and with a statement written by a PR consultant. That's boring and so we don't see this.
What the media is showing is is 800 or so Islamic extremisits running through the streets burning Danish flags and abusing America (who knows why America gets the blame here). At some of these riots, muslim clerics were standing in the streets usging the protesters to stop. This is what the media is showing us because its more interesting than a few guys standing outside a mosque reading their PR statement.
Now we get non-muslisms over the world watching their TV's and seeing these isolated riots in a few corners of the globe. Musilms are crazy we think. They don't belive in free speech, I take offense but I don't burn cars, my religion is therefore greater. More Musilm hate is expressed towards your average Muslim man or woman in the street. The cycle continues. It's ridiuclous and its frustrating.
Back to the main topic, yeah freedom of expression is good. The thing people don't realise, unfortunetly, is that freedom of speech ends at derogatory comments. The “everything i say will offend somone” argument is bull. I have to say having 8 or so cartoons depicting one of the most respected figures in the world is just stupid and a bit over the top. It's going to offend people.
The crux of freddom of speech is scrutiny of the powerful and protection of your own rights in society. Using it to take shots at other religions (particularly in this day and age where Muslism are under the gun a bit) is going to cause problems.
And TåkØÐã, The Crusades was hardly Christian radicalism or terrorism.:)March 9, 2006 at 5:29 pm #138848
Anyways, I think and I am sure most of you guys will agree with me that whatever the cartoonists and the editor did were absolutely unprofessional. Come on. Think of it. If I don't like a certain religion and I am working in a famous national news paper, that doesn't sound right that I would draw offending cartoons about that religion and publish it in the news paper, I have access to.
Above all, the editors were so stupid, yes stupid, that they obviously don't know the line dividing respect for a religion and freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is great as long as it doesn't offend a community, religion or something. Even if its controversial, there is always a limit. But I think in this case, the editors and the cartoonists have crossed the limit.
Laughable thing is the Prime Minister of Denmark initially refused to meet a delegation of Muslims who were protesting peacefully regarding this issue and instead defended the press. I think some people just need to grow up…including the violent protestors.March 15, 2006 at 6:12 am #138840
I think most of you (and the world) are overlooking the main issue at hand, which isn't who was in line/out of place, but the flexibility of the Muslim community's anti-liberalism stance in regards to globalization.
Will Muslim theocracy forever be incompatible with Western idealisms?
The West is now placing the pressure on the developing world to follow their example and establish political liberalism with free economies, a move so obvious as to welcome anti-American/EU sentiments.
The Danish caricatures is only one of a long list of Muslim retaliations, including, and not limited to the assasination of a Dutch filmmaker in 2000, for releasing a documentary depicting the submissive (and often abused) roles of women in Muslim soceity.
But should we be surprised? History has taught us time and time again, that to refine by force will bring nothing but resistance by cultural difference, bringing light to a simple but universal lesson: they will not go down without a fight. The assumption for need of cultural refine can be accredited to nothing more than ignorance, an ignorance that has fed a tireless pattern survived by centuries of rebellions, revolutions and reforms for independence. Britain was met with the Indian Mutiny of 1857, Spain was met with the Philippine Revolution of 1896-98, Belgium was met with the Rwandese Hutu revolt of 1959, and the West was met with 9-11.
The West/EU remains the single most powerful leader in the world, both politically and economically, a fact hard to deny, but similar to the First Nations during Britain’s colonization of Canada, arises the question: Who are we to define what’s civil? Wealth and power equating to the standard of propriety has been a venue plaguing humanity for centuries, a venue I beg to challenge.
The West/EU’s “cultural colonization” of the world remains a sore spot amongst pro-Globalization advocates, and what one can accredit to, as the heart of the war on terrorism. But would abstaining from Globalization administer a safe world? Of course not, as remains the classic Clash of Civilizations theory, and here comes into play the ultimate question of personal ethicality: a war of differences, or a war of similarities?March 15, 2006 at 9:42 am #138839Jeff HesterKeymaster
Have to agree with most of these comments…
Question thou how many times had Jesus been the brunt of cartoonists thou ? And no feeding them to the lions don't count here ok!
The reaction was just an excuse to bring to a head all the pent up frustrations and another way to blame the west for something ( although i'm using west in a liberal term here)
Quote: from ANNA
” The West/EU remains the single most powerful leader in the world, both politically and economically, a fact hard to deny “
Sorry, I have to disagree here CHINA is the next cab of the rank, Civilisations have come and go
throughout historyMarch 15, 2006 at 11:14 pm #138841ALLEYCAT wrote:Sorry, I have to disagree here CHINA is the next cab of the rank, Civilisations have come and go
There's really nothing to digress regarding power. Power does come and go; the Roman Empire met it's end, the British colonization of the world met an end, and by all means it's entirely likely the West well meet it's end in X hundred years from now.
However, the West is the most powerful nation in the world in present tense — who's next in line is ultimately irrelevant. If you must know though, it is, infact China, followed by the prospect of India.
You're trying to argue cold facts. 😉March 16, 2006 at 11:47 pm #138849
I agree that the muslims have been revolting against things that don't really matter much. But honestly, I personally wonder, do the Muslims even understand the whole politics and dynamics of certain facts? I frankly don't think so. Majority of Muslims in Iran, Saudi Arabia and other countries protested only because they were “asked to” by their leaders. They assume that their leaders are always right and others are always wrong. No matter how bad things their leaders will tell them, they will follow it.
There are many reasons for this. One biggest reason is lack of education and awareness.
Globalization can only be successful through education. Education has to be non-religious, not like the Islamic education that prevail in most Islamic countries. Only through secular and non-partial education, one can see the things as they are, rather than blindly following some “leader” who has his/her own personal agenda and goals. Through education comes also economic stability and success. If people are not educated, where will money come from? And we all know the poverty is a major factor towards terrorism.
I want to distance this particular cartoon issue from other issues that concern the muslims. They may or may not be over-reacting to other issues, but the cartoons are definitely ugly. Its not just muslim religion but rather any religion will get offended if their religious leader is portrayed this way. Cartoons like this also fan something called “racism” and there is no place of racism in the world of globalization.
About the idea that only Western countries are the victim of Muslim Jehad or Muslim anger, let me tell you guys one thing. No other country has suffered more of terrorism than India itself and today, the whole world is suffering from terrorism. Don't you think the innocent poor kids from Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran are also suffering for something that they have no idea about? The whole idea of Islamic “Jehad” is nothing but absolute bull-****.March 22, 2006 at 9:57 am #138842
It's not lack a of knowledge, it's Jihad — it's extreme nationalism.
They're very aware of the schools of liberal democracy, the West throws it to their face on a daily basis, but their conscious decision to remain orthodox and totalitarianist in nature is what stems the conflict of almost all the contemporary Muslim issues right now.
The world wants them to adopt new liberalism, they want to stick to their old dogma, and huzzah — Islam fascists.
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