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- This topic has 61 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 1 month ago by Doris Kenney.
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January 26, 2008 at 3:39 am #165817imported_EvilSephMember
I think we all came on as staff (read: accepted the position offered) because we hoped we could help BigBlueBall, change it and give back to it.
The reason why I hardly gave any feedback regarding BigBlueBall was because of the aforementioned issue – it doesn’t matter.
Not everyone is given the opportunity to give back to BigBlueBall like you were, so you really have no way of judging if we have given back to BigBlueBall or not or if we’ve done anything at all for BigBlueBall. I’ve done a lot of things for BigBlueBall that I’ve chosen not to gloat about and not take credit for. Just because you do not see me or anyone contributing in a visible way to BigBlueBall does not mean we aren’t. And neither does it mean our contributions are any less valuable than yours.
I used to pore my heart and soul into this community and site, and anyone else saying otherwise is rather insulting. I have also given my fair share of feedback, gotten my fair share of promises of change and nothing has resulted despite frequent reassurance that things will change, suggestions will be implemented etc. Nothing.
Instead, I see effort more focused on what one person wants rather than what the whole team wants. At times, we’re a team and we’re treated as such but often times, it’s up to Jeff and to quote Jeff: “This isn’t open for discussion. […]”. If that’s the case, I don’t see why I should be giving my opinion on anything since it is not even considered, let alone valued.
January 26, 2008 at 7:38 am #165815DavidParticipant@EvilSeph 225981 wrote:
I think we all came on as staff (read: accepted the position offered) because we hoped we could help BigBlueBall, change it and give back to it.
[/quote]
I’d like to think that, but its not true. We were short on people, staff positions were handed out like candy. Anyone that posted a lot in the past year and half and isn’t insane is on the staff now. This is unfortunate, but true.Quote:Not everyone is given the opportunity to give back to BigBlueBall like you were, so you really have no way of judging if we have given back to BigBlueBall or not or if we’ve done anything at all for BigBlueBall. I’ve done a lot of things for BigBlueBall that I’ve chosen not to gloat about and not take credit for. Just because you do not see me or anyone contributing in a visible way to BigBlueBall does not mean we aren’t. And neither does it mean our contributions are any less valuable than yours.“Not doing anything” isn’t really directed at you, and although I don’t know if I buy that or not, I’ll take your word for it.
Quote:I used to pore my heart and soul into this community and site, and anyone else saying otherwise is rather insulting.Instead, I see effort more focused on what one person wants rather than what the whole team wants. At times, we’re a team and we’re treated as such but often times, it’s up to Jeff and to quote Jeff: “This isn’t open for discussion. […]”. If that’s the case, I don’t see why I should be giving my opinion on anything since it is not even considered, let alone valued.
So you didn’t get your choice in the CMS – does that mean you can’t write content? Not every decision is up to you, and that is the purpose of a team, to compromise and work together even if you don’t get your way.
January 26, 2008 at 8:01 am #165820SpikeMemberNot gonna make this long, it’s late and I’m tired.
So long everyone, it’s been a lot of fun. Every point that Dave made, I agree with (not to be repetitive or anything, but I was just reading his post and nodding my head repeatedly).
Those of you that still chat in our new IRC channel (as well as Jeff who pops in occasionally on Gtalk :)), we’ll keep in touch for awhile. The rest of you, I wish you all the best. I also hope that you all find a good use for this site. I’ll be watching (from a user’s perspective of course).
You are free to keep the design I made, it’s my gift to you guys, if you ever end up using it. I release it from my property or my rights, or whatever. It’s free, anyone can use it for whatever they want. I’m done with it.
See ya round, guys ‘n gals. 😉
January 26, 2008 at 2:58 pm #165818imported_EvilSephMemberI think you should re-read my posts Dave as “my choice in CMS” is not the issue here. If things were different and the CMS choice was the only time we were not listened to, then I wouldn’t mind as much. If we were flat out told it doesn’t matter what we think or say, OK. That’s one way to run a community and site and we – or at least, I – would have accepted it. But we weren’t.
Whether or not staff was “handed out like candy” as you say is irrelevant. Here you go again, judging everyone because they don’t seem to be as good as you. You are not me. You are not everyone else. You do not know how we feel or what we think about and so, you do not know if we hoped we could help BigBlueBall, change it and give back to it. I know that is originally why I accepted the position – because I liked this place.
The comment that positions were given out like candy is a sore one as it further shows that we’re undervalued. You sound like the kind of person who’d bitch and moan when someone is brought in above you because they were not subjected to the same treatment as you. Just because we may have been given the position because “there was a need”, does not mean we do not measure up to your greatness or have not proven our worth. Looking at the past happenings in BigBlueBall, I’d say the rest of the staff deserve to be here. I see you haven’t stopped looking down on everyone not as good or better than you.
Who are you to judge whether someone is not contributing something or “not doing anything”? Different people contribute in different ways. Some people tell their friends about this place, some people spend countless hours providing support in the forums, other people spend countless hours making sure the forums are clean and others do other things. Just because not everyone is given the opportunity to be as great as you does not mean they couldn’t be or that their contributions do not measure up to yours. Look around you, has anyone else been given as much opportunities to give back as you have been? No. So they find their own way of giving back to the community they (once) loved.
From day one, we were encouraged to interact with each other, get to know each other and make suggestions for a better BigBlueBall. Each time someone made a suggestion and there was a positive response from the staff, we’d receive praise for the suggestion and promises that changes are coming. Naturally, this encourages people to contribute their ideas but when the ruse is up and the cat is out of the bad – what has happened to BigBlueBall is what happens; the staff feel undervalued and no longer wish to give their heart and soul into this community.
However, and I’m still not sure why everyone else is not really able to voice their opinions on here, that wasn’t the first time, nor the second, or third. I, like a lot of the staff, are obviously going to tire of giving feedback, input and priority or dedication to this community if we aren’t treated like the friend we thought we were.
Time and time again, we’ve spent countless hours discussing things that we all – or most of us – believe will make a difference on BigBlueBall and time and time again, we are given the same, meaningless promise of change to come but it’s a new year already and none of the proposed changes have been made. None of the promises made have been kept.
I know for a fact there are others who share my views but I guess I am the only one confident enough to speak out against anyone. I liked – no – I loved BigBlueBall. It was breath of fresh air every time I came on here and saw how friendly everyone was and how helpful everyone was. After detn8r invited me to join here and answer a few questions, I was hooked. There was no better community at the time – everyone was friendly, everyone was helpful and everyone was valued. Everyone. Every staff member, every member. Hell, even every guest.
Having been here for a while, I started to notice a few things that if were changed, would help push BigBlueBall even further. So I posted about them, out of respect, in the staff forums. Possibly the biggest mistake I could ever make. A few days go by, responses accumulate. Positive. Good. Oh, look, even the Admins like it and have promised it’ll happen. Excellent, I’ve given back to BigBlueBall like I first intended to when I accepted this position.
Days, weeks, months – no, years – later. Still nothing. Of course, in that span of time, I’ve given a few more suggestions, all with the same praise and the same promises. And I was happy.
Nothing.
After these few times I was run around in circles and not treated with the respect I thought I had earned, I started to move around, looking for a replacement for BigBlueBall. Unfortunately, there was none. So I stayed, hoped things would change but nothing did. Nothing has. The staff are still as undervalued as they were a while ago and I can see they reacted quite closely to how I did.
Suggestions given. Praise received. Promises made.
Nothing.
So I, and everyone else, have started to give back what we receive in hopes it would go noticed and changes would result:
Nothing.
January 26, 2008 at 7:56 pm #165861Doris KenneyParticipantI can certainly hear the frustration in these last few posts. A community atmosphere is important, one where people can express themselves openly and be heard. Receiving feedback on ones ideas is critical to the encouragement of new and additional suggestions. Feeling a valuable part of a team is what encourages a team to continue to do their best.
However, I think it’s important to remember that in any organization or group of people, while continuing change a good thing, implementing it can be difficult. It falls to someone (in this case Jeff) to make the ultimate determination if an idea fits with the goals and principles upon which this site is based (and where he wants it to head), and if so, to determine (with the help of his administrators or those he chooses to do research for him) if the implementation feasible. Some really great ideas can become so complicated to put into practice they simply are not realistic.
Even those deemed worthy of being done require more than just the impetus of one person – it requires teamwork. When one person puts their heart and soul into something and can’t get the help from others to move ahead, it becomes frustrating. Jeff may be the ultimate decision maker here, but he simply cannot be the person helps everyone do everything – his job is to manage and direct – it is us the staff members/administrators who are charged with “carrying out” and for that we need cooperation amongst ourselves. Unfortunately, even the best ideas sometimes never come to fruition. How many companies have set out to design the ultimate “whatever-it-is” only after years of investment of time, money and manpower to scrap a project? It’s simply part of the nature of change. Each failed attempt at change can be looked upon as a learning experience for the next time.
Perhaps establishing teams to evaluate new suggestions, and what would be involved in implementing them wouldn’t be such a bad idea. Giving Jeff the information necessary to make informed decisions, rather than leaving him with a pile of ideas and tons of legwork to contemplate, might just make some things happen more expeditiously. Delving in and trying to make things happen can only be done well with proper preparation and planning.
I certainly have not been around long enough to know the implications of all that seems to be dredged up here. One thing I do hear is the ongoing feeling that suggestions are perhaps sometimes swept under the rug. Perhaps it’s not that they are being ignored, but the communication back to explain why they are not feasible is not being made. With a group so diverse and far spread, such communication can be difficult. And, admittedly in the face of other day to day tasks, sometimes remembering to tell people some small detail falls to “I’ll do it tomorrow” and we forget.
One important thing to remember I’ve not heard mentioned in this, is that we are here to help people. Perhaps not as many staff have been contributing for various personal reasons, but the fact remains, people are getting the assistance they need. Certainly no small group of staff members knows everything, so a larger weigh in on problems might solve them faster, but ultimately people are getting help – and THAT is why we’re really here isn’t it? It’s the feeling that people are here to help (and really care) is what keeps members coming back to this site.
I hope my comments are not taken in any way to diminish the very valid concerns of the staff members. A cohesive group of staff members is vital for help and support of members to continue. Maybe, instead of looking at the big picture of where the site needs to go to regain a larger market share just now, a good look at how we can draw our team members closer together into a better functioning group or groups would be more productive for the immediate short term goal. We all have individual strengths we can bring to the table, not just in terms if what we know about instant messaging, but in terms of creativity, organization, website design, technical knowledge etc. Finding a way to harness those talents to make BBB the best site it can be – regardless of the changes that may or may not be made should be what we focus on.
Once again – my deepest apologies if I’ve in any way minimized the feelings of any staff member who has posted in this thread. The feelings of staff members and how they percieve the “behind the scenes” workings are always tremendously important and critical to keeping things functioning. In my 20+ years at my full-time job, I’ve been in the position of “why won’t they listen to what I have to say?” and also of having information that can’t be given to everyone. Both positions can be equally as frustrating.
I’m one of those people David refers to (I believe) when he metions staff positions being “handed out like candy.” I’d like to say I’ve felt nothing but welcomed here, and I’m truly honored to be on staff. Admittedly, I still have a lot to learn, but I also feel I have a lot to offer. I’ve been fortunate enough to get to know a couple of you and those friendships are invaluable to me on more levels than I can even express. I’d like to say thank you to everyone on staff who keeps BBB going – without each and every one of you, even those who haven’t been as active for various reasons, BBB might not be where it is today, and I might not be able to be part of such a wonderful group of people.
-Doris-
February 4, 2008 at 12:03 am #165826DermotParticipantPersonally i could say many things but i’ll keep it brief as possible
Communications is a big issue on BBB, the mere fact the last time i talked to the team leader was last September?
I doubt i have even talked to Jeff in way over that.
Spike,David,Detn8r..etc..all admins don’t seem to partake in many forums at all, whether they don’t, not expected to or just don’t want to, unable to or just too damn busy, While this is not much of a major impact it can have an effect on the staff and the day to day running of a community.
I personally see no need for them as there is only 1/2 administrators needed and where the positions handed out like candy thing came into play i definately think that was as bad as any staff recruitment.
The forums are been clogged by “Sticky threads” that people just read and don’t bother to post.
The past threads on third party programs you could use with the selected Yahoo!/WLM programs seem to have vanished, which always got a lot of hits and visitors with questions.
I have absolutely no problem with continuing to offer my support on all regions of BBB as long as they are welcomed and not threading on toes so to speak which was kinda the feeling when the specific groups where in place the first time when shifter asked me to help on the Yahoo! threads.
Now what i said may come off as “wrong” to some but i feel it’s my place to say exactly how i see it and this is how i see it at the moment.
February 4, 2008 at 3:18 am #165836NessaParticipantI will respond to this one comment.
@Dermot 226230 wrote:Communications is a big issue on BBB, the mere fact the last time i talked to the team leader was last September?
If this refers to me, I stopped considering myself the Yahoo! Team Leader the moment we moved into just over-all staff and no specified teams. So I not longer kept in touch with you nor Venom the way I tried to before. After that I just stopped using Yahoo! the way I used to and stopped keeping track of it’s updates and bugs. If you had any questions or needed someone else to go to, that was for you to go the administrators not me. You must at least see that when I did have the label “Yahoo! Team Leader” even if I didn’t post actively I tried to keep the Yahoo! section together as best I could and even tried to hold meetings with you and the other Yahoo! staff member.
As for anything else you mentioned I won’t comment on since I have actively talked to some admin – mainly Graham, but I honestly had to comment on this because I find it unfair to throw that on me…..
February 4, 2008 at 4:13 am #165827DermotParticipantI posted it as an example as you’re not the only team leader i knew at the time, so no it wasn’t solely directed at you but an example of the loss of communication between staff members.
Same with admin and others and even you stated that you don’t have much dealing with them on that regard, my whole point entirely.
February 4, 2008 at 11:47 pm #165802Jeff HesterKeymasterDermot, thanks for telling it like it is!
I’m going to share my thoughts tonight when I get home from work.
February 5, 2008 at 6:10 am #165803Jeff HesterKeymasterI considered quoting sections from a number of the excellent replies, but this message would be too long and muddled by all the debate. No question, there are some people on staff in name only.
Some claim to have an interest, but their participation shows otherwise. That’s ok — we all have to make choices in our lives, and some are easier than others.
Most of you have done an outstanding job of sharing your knowledge, helping other users, and giving your opinions on how best to improve the site. Thanks for all your tireless work. I don’t say that enough.
It’s strange, but I chat with a few of you with some regularity, but others rarely at all. I have to admit, I don’t spend as much time chatting as I used to, but I do make myself accessible. I’m usually online during working hours in both Google Talk ([email protected]) and WLM (also [email protected] — works via Yahoo! Messenger, too!). That pretty much covers everyone but AIM/ICQ which currently is one of our weak areas. Please, IM me! And I’ll make an effort to do the same. 😉
So what changes do we make?
Well, as David indicated, we’ve spoken and he agrees that it’s time to retire. He’s been a member here for a long time, and he’s agreed to be available if we need his assistance with server stuff, but won’t have a full-time role on the staff. Spike has said that he’s lost interest, but that he might be interested “if things turn around.” That tells me that he’s not interested in participating at this time. Neither of them have been doing much in the past months, so I don’t expect a big change. I’ve been handling most of the administration chores myself.
It’s easy to see who is interested…
Philip, patndoris, PolarBearNPR, Dermot, Nessa, Ven0m, MrOats, detn8r and MrEggsalad have all expressed an interest in continuing, and are still active in the forums.It’s also easy to see who is clearly NOT interested…
RabidKitten and Jon8RFC have’t even visited the site once in the past 45 days. They are retiring by default of their responsibilities.It’s harder in the gray middle area…
EvilSeph, Stigmata, Lucifina, princeG, and DrBroccoli haven’t participated much recently (some with the exception of this topic). I’d like to give them a final chance to either step up, or step down. If their participation is up by the end of two weeks, they may remain on the staff if they are interested. If not, they will also join the BBB Alumni.And then there are the gaps…
We have some clear gaps in technological expertise. We’re missing AIM and ICQ skills, and I’m not sure who has the “social network” skills (assuming we expand in that direction, as discussed in Philip’s poll).Others have expressed an interest…
xxWolverinexx has expressed an interest in helping get the podcast going again. sarahtowny has expressed an interest in re-joining the staff in the Community Center. Even oreo has suggested an interest.So where does that leave us?
Here’s who we have that’s interested (in alphabetical order). I’ve included their area(s) of interest and/or expertise (forgive me for using an old Windows icon for Computer Support). Please reply with corrections! 🙂- Dermot
- detn8r
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- Jeff Trillian, iPhone
- MrEggsalad Pidgin
- MrOats CC
- Nessa – CC
- patndoris
- Philip CC
- PolarBearNPR – CC
- Ven0m
And sitting on the fence are:
- DrBroccoli – Pidgin, Trillian Astra, Social Networks
- EvilSeph
- Lucifina
- princeG
- Stigmata
And sitting in the wings are:
- sarahtowny – CC
- xxWolverinexx Podcast
- oreo (?) – CC
Looking at this list you can see we have ten active staffers, five who are sitting on the fence and a few names of people who have expressed an interest. You’ll also notice that we have pretty good representation for WLM and Y!, but no one active for AIM or ICQ. We do have a couple people interested in alternate IM products (Pidgin, Trillian, etc.), but I’m not sure if anyone is a Mac devotee (Adium? iChat?).
We need to fill-in some of those gaps, since there are still millions of AIM and ICQ users out there! But as previously pointed out, we don’t want to hand out staff roles like candy (I wasn’t aware that we had, but I can appreciate that some might think so).
Those who have been around for a while will know that I like to strike a balance between tech know-how and people-skills, and I consider the staff looking over the Community Center (the so-called “off topic” areas) as equals with the more technical subject areas. I like the balance it creates.
As for the staff structure, I’m not so much interested in teams in a restrictive sense, but more from a management standpoint — to make sure all our bases are covered. In simple terms, to make sure topic areas have adequate coverage, by assigning primary responsibility to a “team.” I see no reason to restrict moderator privileges to just one area. Again, those who have been around long enough might think differently (sometimes one team stepped on anothers proverbial toes).
So here’s what’s next.
- Retiring immediately from the staff are David, Spike, RabidKitten and Jon8RFC. I’ll post an official announcement this week.
- EvilSeph, Stigmata, Lucifina, princeG, and DrBroccoli have two weeks from today to step up their participation or retire. If any of you have questions or concerns about this, please IM me.
- All staffers need to review the interest areas (the icons I put next to your names) and let me know where I got it wrong. 😉
- Chime in on the “in the wings” crew and let me know what you think. If you know of anyone we could recruit for the gaps, let me know that as well!
I’ll be looking at the team leader concept based on some of the comments in this discussion and putting together an updated roster/announcement this coming weekend.
Feel free to add your comments, questions and suggestions here or privately via PM or IM.
February 5, 2008 at 9:16 am #165857PhilipModeratorKudos to a very well-written and lucid post, Jeff. You’ve got my interests correct, i.e. WLM, Computer Support, and CC. I do tend to dip my toes into the Yahoo! area from time to time (hope nobody minds). More often than not, it’s just to let a member know that someone has read their posts and then usually our Yahoo! gurus will take over :p .
I’d just like to say that BBB has been my “home” for about one and a half years now, and I do like it here! Staff are pretty friendly (same goes for the boss!). Of course there are ups and downs, but I do try my best to post whenever I can. As most of the IM clients continue to evolve and improve, we don’t get as many frustrated users as we used to in the past. And that’s why I love CC area, it’s where we can lurk and post jokes, polls, whatever.
One thing which worries me is the lack of non-staff members posting in BBB (they only post when they have problems :confused: ) but maybe this is a topic for another thread. If we could brainstorm together about how to motivate our members to post, this would be a great challenge for us this year.
Social Networking is another area we can’t ignore. I seem to remember that Doris was willing to help in this area, and it did garner the most number of votes in my poll. It also shows that staff and non-staff are clamoring for other interests in CC, namely hobbies, general discussions, music, TV and movies. This could perhaps give more choices for members to post, besides IM (our forte).
I would love to welcome Sarah, Wolverine and Oreo into our fold! I know that Sarah has been wonderful as a former staff member; she’s very friendly and posts often. Wolverine has also shown his metal in his posts. As for Oreo, what else can I say but welcome back?
Just my thoughts, for now.
February 5, 2008 at 6:22 pm #165828DermotParticipantI’m glad a clear picture is coming from the outcome of this thread since im sure jeff it was the whole point of starting it was to get views.
I can do more threads than just yahoo, i use ICQ, WLM and Yahoo and windows and Linux which i use pidgin.
Only thing i dont use the official program allocated is AIM, haven’t used it in a long time and use pidgin to login to Oscar.
As for feedback..
1. Premier program is closed, why is forum still open for it? perhaps make an archive read only thread and place it in it.
2. More threads under Computer/internet support like webdesign/programming/tweaking/recommended programs etc
3. Staff adding downloads need to fill out keywords to make member search for them easier…lot just have the word “keyword”But yes i agree there has been valid points expressed by everybody and im sure the outcome will be good.
February 5, 2008 at 11:19 pm #165852PolarBearNPRParticipantBwahahaha! Computer support? Me? Jeff – you’ve gone off your nut! CC is fine, and of course if I see something I can help with elsewhere I certainly will. *gets kleenex to wipe tears of hysteria*
As far as the in-the-wings crew – sounds good to me. Carry on then.
February 5, 2008 at 11:56 pm #165804Jeff HesterKeymasterPhilip;226286 wrote:Kudos to a very well-written and lucid post, Jeff.Thanks Philip! 😀
Dermot;226295 wrote:1. Premier program is closed, why is forum still open for it? perhaps make an archive read only thread and place it in it.Good point! :woot: I’ve now removed it from public view. Staffers can still see it, but the general public will not.
Dermot;226295 wrote:2. More threads under Computer/internet support like webdesign/programming/tweaking/recommended programs etcI’m all for it.
Dermot;226295 wrote:3. Staff adding downloads need to fill out keywords to make member search for them easier…lot just have the word “keyword”We probably need to revisit the download section and make sure it’s either useful and up-to-date, or remove it or replace it with something that works.
PolarBearNPR;226318 wrote:Bwahahaha! Computer support? Me? Jeff – you’ve gone off your nut! CC is fine, and of course if I see something I can help with elsewhere I certainly will. *gets kleenex to wipe tears of hysteria*Love your sense of humor! :p
February 6, 2008 at 12:28 am #165837NessaParticipant@Jeff 226281 wrote:
Nessa
I’m not all that familiar with Yahoo! as of late so I’d probably not be much of help there, plus Ven0m, Dermot, and pantadoris do an EXCELLENT job there. I’m barely new to WLM so I’m probably no help there either. I think I currently fall in CC. I’d love to bring interest to movies and sports which are two things I love as well as any current news which may capture people’s attention (and no, not the usual Spears/Lohan/Hilton drama!). And this doesn’t mean that I won’t try to help out when I can, but this time I’m all in!
I do realize we don’t want to move away too much from an IM-centered site, but everyone who IM’s loves a little off-topicness every so often.
And with that, I do have one final comment….. Jeff: You so need an icon for that CC section rather than “CC” 😛 And if I had any graphic skills whatsoever I’d do it, but I think mine would scare people away if I tried lol
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